Talk:Life Hacks/Hallomod(tod-pre)/Give a somewhat kid appropriate answer to July's question about why your penis is big
Sooo... 2 things. 1. Loki does not appear on any of the other routes. Trying to keep the time-line consistent here, so every encounter with Loki after the first has been you going to him and not him suddenly coming to you. 2. This route was actually supposed to go toward possibly having something go wrong and have Summer start flipping out. That's a little less important than the 1st one though. At least have Xander be the one to think it up instead of suddenly having this literal Deuce Ex Machina out of nowhere. Jemini (talk) 00:43, 16 April 2019 (CEST)
Actually Loki randomly appearing happens in this route in the Xander's Families dining room. I actually got the idea for this from that, He showed up to check on Xander and gave him some ideas on things to do and an upgrade to his life hack. I decided to have Loki clue him in, to show that even with full stats Xander, despite his perfect stats is still not perfect and new at this game, with room to learn and grow, and his hormones could cloud his judgment. Telgar (talk) 18:01, 15 April 2019 (PST)
No, that WAS the "1st time" I was referring to when I said that, although I suppose the confusion is easy since you could think I meant the 1st time at the beginning of the entire thing. What I meant was that it was at a point that made complete narrative sense at that point. It was when he was just coming back from using the "real world" bathroom, 10 minutes "IRL" translating to around 4 hours "in game," and those 4 hours are kept relatively consistent in all routes and in all cases he comes back it's for the exact same purpose. All other times Xander encounters loki aside from that one instance to give him the upgrades are Xander going to him.
The other point though is this is a literal deuce ex machina, both by definition and also by implementation (Implementation being the important part.) That's just universally agreed on as bad form in story telling. Jemini (talk) 03:27, 16 April 2019 (CEST)
Ok, so, just started a different and more bold route to demonstrate kinda what I was talking about as a better general kind of route for this. Leaves Loki out of it while also adding the option for Xander to suddenly notice and think of this on his own.
Also, another thing, the reaction Loki's describing is how the reaction would be if all the stats were at 50. At 70-80, they would be uncomfortable with what you're doing but make excuses as to why it's actually Ok, and Xander wouldn't ultimately get into trouble. At the full 100, they would make the excuses and seem uneasy at first, but after doing it for just a bit they will have convinced themselves it's actually not just perfectly fine but also for the best somehow for you to be doing these clearly illegal things, and Loki would also know this.
This is why I've actually been kinda avoiding the routes with the maxed out stats, they really do make things a bit less interesting that way. The original idea I had in mind while making this route was to reveal just how far the stats would really go in what would be allowed, but never wound up writing it because of how boring the maxed stats route was starting to feel.
Also, even if Xander had nothing in terms of good stats, Loki would actually not warn him. He IS a trickster god after all, he may not actually be a god in this cannon, but that still speaks to what kind of personality he has and it would actually amuse him if Xander got into trouble like that. Also, he would respect Xander's intelligence enough for him to realize either that his penis is too big during the act or that he should think about the pregnancy after the fact.
(Sorry, it's just that I put quite a bit of care and effort into the character and world building here. Kinda has to be maintained in order to keep up the feel of the world.) Jemini (talk) 09:20, 16 April 2019 (CEST)
Okay, whatever, I thought it would be an interesting twist to show that even with maxed stats, that Xander still can make mistakes, as this is all still new to him, and he still is human with flawed logic and hormones that can interfere with his thinking. To avoid a "Mary Sue" type character or situation, actually have him need the help of others and not be able to figure "everything" out for himself. I didn't and still don't see it as a deuce ex machina, mainly because it is missing some very key parts to qualify as this, first the character "Loki" has appeared in the story previously and has performed this very action previously, so it does not come out of nowhere, Second Loki didn't tell him "exactly" what rewards to buy, or how to distribute them for max points/capability, just dropped not so subtle hints as to which areas to look at, and in the end the choices were still Xanders. I see their relationship as more of a mentor/mentored relationship, at this time, thus the visit to see how he was doing again and a few not so subtle hints. Also as mentioned in a Talk previously, having maxed stats cause similar reactions to the rewards, lessens the value of the rewards, as all Xander has to do is max everyone's stats out and then he never has to buy rewards or experiment with them. I also thought it would be a fun little bit, to add to, as you describe "a bit less interesting" path, but whatever. Do as you wish. Telgar (talk) 02:11, 16 April 2019 (PST)
Okay, my perspective about this whole thing. I am not at all against Loki intervening more in some branches of the story than others . . . so deus ex machina away (that's how it's spelled BTW). Now I do have some issues on how Xander is portrayed in Telgar's original text. Xander is shown as not thinking of things that are blatantly obvious to me . . . and he is many times smarter than me. Even with raging hormones, in the heat of the moment, he is still smarter and more in control than any human being has ever been. As a perfect human being, the ideas that one has about how he reacts to situations should be carefully evaluated so that his near super-human abilities aren't ignored. That said, I think there could have been much less of a re-write here. I know this is now Jemini's story more than it is mine percentage wise; but I think we can work out a more equitable resolution that maintains more of Telgar's original story while still satisfying the needs of the setting. What do you guys think? --Elerneron (talk) 14:41, 21 April 2019 (CEST)
Well, I have to say that I don't see how having maxed stats would make him a "Perfect Human Being." I would see it as more of having "Maxed Super-Human Potential". Perfect implies zero flaws, which would be imposable to achieve with just stats alone, there would always be a flaw somewhere. Also yes he can think of things we can't and even conceive of and much faster than any of us, however, he is also still new at all of this, having had his abilities less than a day, he is a teen boy and currently so full of sexual hormones that most of his logical brain is probably shutting down. It is a scientifically proven fact that when our hormones kick in we start thinking more with our primal (lizard) brain than our intellectual one. Thus why we have post coitus guilt. Again he is new to all of this and has barely looked at the rewards, so he's not thinking of them as a path to get what he wants makes sense. His newness to the fact he is in a simulation and the short time he has actually had to analyze all the possibilities also leaves issues. Since he has gotten his powers, in this path, he has not slowed down to actually think, most of his actions have been more instinctual, than logical. So coming to a logical conclusion about his actions would be more out of character than him not. So despite the fact, he can think faster and more logically than the rest of us, he has not taken the actual time to think about it.
Also, there is the fact that in this path he is achieving, simply by manipulating people stats, the same things he should be achieving with rewards. It should take both the stats and the rewards to get what he wants. Maxed Love, trust and submission might make someone inclined to do sexual things with Xander, but there are still the taboos, which have yet to be removed by any rewards. The attempt at many of the acts this path is going towards should have the other characters, especially the older ones like Summer, and March, getting very uncomfortable, and once Xander started doing something with her young siblings, really start to freak out. Since the Holidays have been portrayed as a strong Christian family, then things like polygamy, pedophilia, sex out of wedlock, incest, etc should bother them if not freak them out. On the flip side, simply having the pass for these taboos won't guarantee the female would be happy to have sex with Xander, Xander will need to influence her stats as well, to cause her to become attracted to him. So in a sense, both the stats and the rewards are required in, most, situations for any willing sexual acts. With some exceptions for characters like Trish, who already possess the Taboos.
Since he has shown no inclination towards even looking at the rewards, and seems to think that simply manipulating their stats will get him what he wants, then it shows that in his current state he has not thought about the rewards or the consequences of his actions. To suddenly have him figure that out in the middle of a hormonal sex filled encounter, in my opinion, would be more out of character, as he has been established in this path, then having an experienced, and established, mentor-like character show up and ask, "Have you really thought all this through?"Telgar (talk) 07:25, 21 April 2019 (PST)
I understand what you are saying. My problem isn't the direction you took the story at all. It is the degree that you took it in that direction. Chances are that he is not thinking of a lot of these things. If he were to screw up, however, he could talk his way out of just about anything he tried to do. He could out con Frank Abagnale for that matter. There are things he just wouldn't be stupid enough to try. If he went to fuck the baby, he would stop before he did so; knowing that he couldn't do it without hurting her. He knows that he wouldn't be stupid enough to do these things; and would be insulted that Loki thought so little of him to think that he would. Loki is also not terribly concerned about Xander getting himself in trouble locally . . . that would just be more entertainment for him. He is concerned about Xander more than he lets on for reasons that have not yet been disclosed in the story, but he's still just a game character to Loki. A little editing of the passage and it would be just fine. Show Xander feeling insulted when Loki insinuates he would actually knock up the little ones without making sure they were okay later. Have Loki show less actual concern and more of a casual amusement.
When Loki points out that Xander is likely to get in trouble, you have him say “What? Why would I be in trouble, I mean look at their stats, they all love me, and stuff.” That is very out of character. He wouldn't need further explanation. As soon as Loki mentioned it, the problems would become immediately apparent to him. A better response would be something like: “What? Why wou . . . oh, shit! Yeah. I wasn't thinking very clearly.” Then instead of saying: “Oh shit, I didn’t think of that.” a more in-character response would be: “I think I could have talked my way past all of that.” And after mentioning getting the little ones pregnant, he would likely be angry and respond something like: "You think I'd actually hurt them? What kind of monster do you think I am?! I know there's a way for them to safely give birth. If not I can just make them not pregnant. I'm not an idiot!"
That's just my view on things. The passage only needs a little editing (mainly Xander's side) and I think it would be fine. But like I said, this is more Jemini's baby than mine at this point; so I'm waiting for his reply. --Elerneron (talk) 17:19, 21 April 2019 (CEST)
Yeah, I did feel really bad about the harsh edit that ultimately amounted to the complete destruction of Telgar's work. My personal take though was that Loki's personality was very off as well, although I wasn't able to really express it well in my first reactions. I feel like I would really like him to have more of a reason for being there and also for him to be a little more blase about the girls and the situation Xander was about to get himself into. He really struck me as a character who would rather find it amusing to just watch it happen. I do also want the legs to feel somewhat consistent in terms of where everyone is.
Maybe the excuse to bring Loki in can be that he has completed the modification to let Xander enter private mode, allowing "the program" to take over his physical body while his consciousness goes off to manipulate the cheats, hack, and all that stuff. Actually, I've got a fairly good idea about how that could work.
Also, the timeline for events can be very well preserved that way if we give Loki some ability where he could observe Xander without appearing. This would then fit in with that character impression I got of him, and the reason he did not intervene in the other legs is that he decided he wanted to just watch Xander for a while and see how he was performing. In this instance, he would have already checked the window and seen what he had done in terms of cheats and other uses of the hack, so he would already know what cheats Xander has and what he's done at the time he jumps into the scene. So, the reason he jumps in so much earlier on this timeline Vs. the others is because he did find it a little concerning that Xander seemed to be about to do some stuff with them without any social cheats.
I do still think that with maxed out stats Xander could do quite a bit and easily talk his way through all this. He would probably think using the cheats would be easier, but on this route he hasn't bought any cheats yet and didn't know he had such an absurd amount of points. There are a few other considerations though such as the fact that Loki also shouldn't have expected him to have that many points at this stage since a lot of his points are coming from what basically amounts to a bug where Xander's own sexual preferences are writing in rewards far larger than a normal player can get for the same action.
Ok, yeah, I got a fairly good idea of how to get it on a version similar to Telgar's original text, but there are a few considerations on how Loki should act in my opinion that mean I should probably be the one to write it. I will get to that in a bit then. Jemini (talk) 19:16, 21 April 2019 (CEST)
Ok, just finished up the re-write. Turns out I was able to get it a LOT closer to Telgar's original version than I thought while also fitting it a lot closer to Both Xander's and Loki's personalities while even making it consistent with all the options at the end.
Also, I used Loki noticing the bug in Xander's points-earning system as the excuse to get him in instead of the Privacy Mode thing, so it still all works and there's even another excuse available to have Loki come back later. I think, while it was pretty much fully re-written from scratch with everything except the first paragraph or two, the spirit has been fully preserved. Jemini (talk) 20:18, 21 April 2019 (CEST)
Thank you, I put a lot of effort into my works, and tend to use these CYOA for inspiration to get my muse and creative juices flowing, having work so completely and totally edited to the point of no longer being recognizable as my work, or worse erased, well, kills that muse for quite some time. I appreciate that in this instance it was mostly restored. I do understand the need for edits, I can't read your thinking and fully understand how you envision the characters, but I do, do my best to match it as close as I can. One other thing I would like to point out though a thought that popped into my head after my last comment. Xander is a character in a game, no matter how much he might realize he is in a simulation and how much his stats might be increased, He still should never be more powerful, be able to out think, or even fully understand the players. They are the players and in his universe Gods. So his being able to read Lokis attempt to hide things does not seem like a good president to set. Loki and the other actual players should always be bigger, better, smarter, strong and faster than Xander. Telgar (talk) 13:04, 21 April 2019 (PST)
I don't see the objection, a top-tier AI is almost always way better than your average human in every way that is considered to be a part of the features of a given game. It is only the absolute best players of a game that can beat a top-tier AI. I'm not sure if you play Super Smash Bros, but Xander right now is like a Lv. 50 Amiibo compared to a human player. Lv. 50 Amiibos are impossible for even low tier competitive players to beat, and completely out of reach for ANY casual player to ever be able to handle. It's only a very very small handful of the very best smash players who could ever beat a Lv. 50 Amiibo.
In gaming in particular, it is very common for AIs to be designed with the capability to absolutely thrash a human player in order to attract the hard-core players. For the hard-core crowd, beating a top-tier AI is considered something of a badge of honor, and you are usually not even considered in the rankings among top players unless you can first beat a top AI.
(Really, we should probably just be glad Xander doesn't have the ability to input-read players. That could get very absurd in a game that links directly to a person's mind.)Jemini (talk) 00:35, 22 April 2019 (CEST)
That would be true for a competitive game but this is not a competitive game, this game comes off as more of a life sim game where the players are God, and are supposed to control and manipulate the lifies, i.e. Sims, which at the very beginning of the story, this game is very much compared too, down to the original game being Sim City and made by Maxis. The Sims have minimal AI so as to allow the players to make decisions for them, and in many cases when putting on total autonomy the Sims make very stupid choices. I would see it as very reasonable for the developers to limit the AI and capability of the Lifies so that the players can have that Godlike feeling when interacting with them. If it were possible for the Lifies to exceed the abilities of the players, then that aspect of the Life Sim game is lost. The very nature of the game is non-competitive. Telgar (talk) 02:09, 22 April 2019 (PST)
You seem to have a very very different view of this from both myself and Erlerniron. I talked with him at the start, and he said that a stat of 200 is literally equal to someone who has a 200 IQ (assuming that 200 is in intelligence.) I'm not sure if you've ever talked to someone with even a 140 IQ, which is the top of the 3rd standard deviation above average making up around 2% of the population (so basically the most intelligent people you are likely to find just common off the street,) but someone with a 140 IQ really does run mental rings around everyone else to an extreme degree.
The sims AI is stupid because it is programmed by humans. Right now, in computer technology, we are developing something called machine learning which is designed to improve AI technology and make it more and more similar to human intelligence, and it is an all out arms race to develop the best AIs. Game companies tend to work off a profit margine. It seems likely to me that when designing this game, they would simply instruct an AI to build the game, instructing the AI to create other advanced AIs with human mimicking intelligence. If it is a life simulator, interacting with stupid AIs would be immersion breaking.
The people who get off on feeling like gods in a game and the people who get off on a hellish challenge are both minorities among the gaming community. Most would want to be slightly challenged at a reasonable level without being overwhelmed. The best way to accomplish this is to set all stats to a human mimicking normal distribution curve, and then put in options such as the cheats that allow someone to work toward having abilities that can make things easier on them. The cheats and the hacks would create enough of a god-like feel for a player without needing to make the NPCs into mental dwarfs and ruin the game for the majority of the players in the process. Jemini (talk) 13:15, 22 April 2019 (CEST)
One of the major points in the story is that the players of the game that simulates Xander's universe are simulations themselves. The only difference between them is the level of control they have over the universe . . . and Loki leveled that playing field. Actually Xander is better off than the players (other than Loki who is like Xander in Loki's own universe) in that he can actually max out his stats instead of virtually maxing out his stats. A player with super intelligence modded into their avatar would be made to seem super intelligent to the lifies around them; but Xander actually IS super intelligent. --Elerneron (talk) 22:56, 22 April 2019 (CEST)