Talk:Dirty Talk/Three Brats/June 26th, 2021/Mommy's Mark - An unexpected visitor/Emilia shows her friends/Heidi makes a distraction for Emilia/Emilia goes home
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I'll hide my uncensored opinion because I don't want to come across as angry towards you as an author. I'm only angry at Laura as a character. Like seriously, good job in writing content that draws emotion out of me, especially towards a fictional character. That's a rare thing indeed, so props to that.
But just out of interest... Is Laura doing this on purpose and being a child-abuser, a "domestic abuser" consciously, or is your version of Laura really too much of a moron to realize Emilia's corruption IS her fault from start to freaking finish? Like seriously, this is what I meant when I said she's so strict and even abusive. What a soul-crushingly evil woman. Laura marked her own daughter with black, using fear and guilt as a weapon, gaslit her, manipulated her, broke one of the strictest rules in the game and got away with it on technicality... And now she is acting like Heidi is the bad guy? What an evil, evil cunt. I pray she gets her comeuppance somewhere down the line because she seriously deserves it. I'll even allow rape and murder if she will! (joking 🤣) -- Innocent Ruin (talk) 04:46, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
Oh, and please don't do the first option. Heidi isn't a kind of character to just lay down and take shit from an abuser. The third and second option make much more sense. -- Innocent Ruin (talk) 04:50, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
I understand that you don't like this version of Laura but technically Emilia was the one who put herself in this path of corruption Emilia always had the choice in the beginning, this is a path of Emilia rebelling every single time, from the very first choice Emilia decided to lie to her friends about the warning and just ignore her mother, then she gets punish and ends up loving it so she decides to get more risky to keep getting punish, yes Laura did manipulate this after realizing that Emilia was loving breaking rules but the fact is Laura only becomes like this after Emilia chooses this path and getting punish is what Emilia wants so badly, Laura approach is very maniipulative but is because she knows that what Emilia wants now letting Emilia do what she wants but under HER direction and control in this path she has become more like a mistress than a mother but this entire path was made by Emilia since in this path SHE LOVE BEING PUNISH, to be honest thats what i love of this path is more like we the player wanted to be super pervertes and always we choose the option of breaking the rules so it makes sense for Laura to evolve from a mother to a mistress. --Xephion (talk) 05:27, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
Good points, and hence why I said Laura is getting away with it on "technicality". As long as Emilia likes it, it's in accordance to the all the rules. But why try to manipulate and lie to Heidi then? She hasn't done anything wrong! And Laura has not taken any accountability for HER own mistakes either, namely getting discovered in the first place! That's why I dislike her personality here so much. I appreciate the kinky scenes with bondage and all that jazz and will gladly self-insert myself into Emilia's shoes (I'm a degenerate, I know) and wouldn't change a thing here, but the build-up and the lack of honesty on Laura's part makes it feel too much like child abuse to me. Personal demons and all that, but I digress. -- Innocent Ruin (talk) 05:51, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
Yeah the first option is harsh cant lie about that so i admit you are right the first option is a bit much but i can see her blaming Heidi and herself so she does this to maybe punish Heidi and herself i don't know,
I cant say what Laura is thinking at this moment, but i can tell you a way she would act like this and not be malicious about it, she Loves Emilia but because of her own mistakes she seen Emilia become someone that loves a very dangerous path but since she has decided stop her at first and failed horrendously all she can do now is act as a mistress to keep Emilia happy and out of danger, so Heidi coming out and trying to erase that symbol make Laura angry because this can make things worse since Emilia is not erasing it herself she likes it a lot, so forcing Emilia to erase it could make Emilia start doing it in secret and that's is so much more dangerous than being public about it since she see Heidi being so against it Laura could be afraid that Emilia will stop hanging out with her friends to keep making this symbols in secret ( I have seen many kids that start a vice of any kind being denied and they start doing it in secret destroying their lives and friendships that try to stop them by force end up making it worse and they get push out of their lives the only way to stop it or at least reduce it is by either convincing the person that is a mistake and they in their own decision decide to change or be understanding and let them enjoy their hobby but with limitations that they agree with, honestly is hard really hard to get out of a vice). and yeah she probably blames herself i hope so at least (and she could be too prideful to admit her own mistakes and she blames Heidi for putting Emilia in this path too maybe is her own pride or her feeling powerless to change Emilia blinds her) but she knows this way will keep Emilia out of danger or maybe I'm just over thinking it and she just loves being a mistress too much and it got in her head i don't know im just assuming... is porn after all so maybe overthinking this is not good in the long run but i want to imagine that Laura is not evil and just a parent who is doing her best to keep her daughter happy and out of danger. --Xephion (talk) 06:23, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
Hmm. Not the reaction I expected. Potentially fair, just unexpected. Sorry for the wall of text:
I actually wrote this path on your idea IR, that Laura and Heidi would "butt heads". Again, didn't know what that would turn into exactly, this just felt natural based on everything that happened. But I can try to explain where Laura might be coming from based on the options that led here.
If Laura had hoped that Emilia might be a fellow dom one day (something you mentioned, I think that someone who bears a mark (or perhaps black) they can't be a true dom or certainly a joker, if I remember right) I thought that losing that possible future for her daughter might make her bitter, even resentful. The plan before the cabin was to scare Heidi and Milka and guide Emilia. You took the "good" path from there, where Emilia goes home as ordered. I took the "bad" path where Emilia not only goes with her friends, but then sacrifices herself with black. Laura wouldn't have planned for THAT to happen, but if rules are rules, and Danny is Danny, then Emilia was fucked (truly).
Re-reading the Gunnar/Venla scene I understand where you're coming from a bit more. But I'm not entirely sure why Laura was trying to punish Heidi and Milka then. I didn't question it either, I just sorta ran with it! But it is still true that Heidi and Milka were how Emilia got into the game, and Emilia would never have marked herself with black if she wasn't trying to "save" them. I think that's enough for Laura to blame those two girls. Emilia's corruption/defilement was sealed as soon as she chose friends over family, and in a way entirely outside of Laura's control.
From there, Laura gave Emilia an opportunity to try wearing markings at home, to become comfortable with them, to learn to hide them. Emilia instead flaunted them, wore them like clown makeup. And then, for a "secret" game, for Emilia to nearly spill details about Laura's pastimes to Sven (that kind of exposure being the same reason the cabin was planned to begin with) Laura felt Emilia should be punished. I didn't feel that was gaslighting. That decision, Emilia handing over control, was as much dom-sub and mother-daughter bonding as it was a punishment. Of course the shed is also where it really went off the rails, and that was just a silly idea at best. It was sort of Laura saying "fuck it - she wanted to wear black", but Laura did "protect" her daughter in a way by taking away her senses to have her focus only on the pleasure and not who was doing what, but it's easy to argue she dove off the deep end on that one. But Laura, after working out her frustrations with her daughter in the "bedroom", only got riled up again in this scene when Heidi started pointing fingers. So she's again looking to sort things out in the "bedroom" in order to let bygones be bygones.
That said, the real reason for this scene was simple; Conflict is fun. These are all (mostly) the paths that got voted on that got us here, and each one is just an excuse to find more points of conflict. Making that jive with the characters can be legitimately hard. I agree that any mother worth her salt wouldn't allow any single encounter in this whole story, but that would be boring. However I also then can't explain why Laura would be willing to corrupt Ludwig, or pass her daughter over to the farmer to play doctor. I enjoyed all those scenes, but one could argue they aren't befitting a loving mother either. But to each their own. Some enjoy watching tornados and others enjoy bike rides. It's all good.
We can move to talk pages if you want to delve deeper into character motivations and justifications for this stuff. As always, open to rewrites too.
Legitimately, we can scrap the whole scene if you want, IR. Or you can rewrite it from scratch if you like. Not bothered either way. If anything I'm curious to know where you would have taken it. --Villenia (talk) 06:24, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
Firstly, I want to reiterate that nothing needs to be changed or scrapped. And second of all, I appreciate the fact that you liked the idea enough to write about it!
Don't mistake my "dislike" for a particular character for criticism either; it's quite the contrary, even if it may not come across as such. I'm just passionate to the fault! I like to laugh, cry, and feel angry when watching and reading stuff! I hate your version of Laura in the same way I hate any good villain in media, because that's how I see her at this point in this branch; a villain that stole Emilia from her friends, who just wanted to show her how to have fun in her new home! Laura doesn't have to be a "realistic mother" at all either - like you said, my version of her is also far removed from being an ideal mother with her various antics of wanting to trick her husband or wanting to shoot a freaking child-porn video with her daughter on it! - and that makes hating her so much fun for me! Some of my favorite media of all time, regardless of medium and genre, have characters in them that I truly despise, and Laura here certainly is a character who does that to me in an emotional sense. I just wished to understand her motives better, which was the point of my post, and I guess your post here answered most of my questions. If I felt inclined to make changes, I would maybe expand a little on that; a bit of exposition in the form of her thought bubbles here and there, but that's the extent of what I'd be willing to touch here. I like the overall narrative of Emilia becoming hopelessly and uncontrollably horny with her submissiveness after all.
I must also admit that I have made changes to those pages you mentioned since you began writing your content and changed some things too. Nothing major, hopefully, but still. My idea was indeed for Laura to want to punish Heidi and Milka, but whether that could be read in a playful manner of "let's have a bit of fun with roleplay" or be as malicious as "I'm seriously angry at them for dragging my daughter into this" is something that's up for interpretation. Your point about "good" and "bad" path comes to play there perfectly, and I agree with that point fully. It could go either way, honestly. And, not to spoil what I have/had planned for my version of the cabin scene, but… (white text for spoilers, highlight it if you want.) It gets fucking ugly, even despite the fact that Laura never intended it to get ugly. Not "rape" levels of ugly, but still, I will probably never publish it because of how badly it fucks with Milka's fragile psyche.
As for where I would have taken this? Honestly, I don't even know. Sure, I like to write with an end goal in mind when I've working on my paths. I have a very specific idea of how Emilia will lose her doggy virginity, for example, but I just hadn't decided how to get there for a long time! Still, when I'm brainstorming ideas on talk pages, I usually come up with an idea first and think second. If I had to say or come up with something, I would've maybe had Heidi be a little bit braver with how she presents herself in Laura's presence because while I see her as a horny little slut, she is also a bit "bossy" with how she acts around others. Then again, I can't blame her for being afraid either. After all, if I was in her panties in that scene, I would be afraid of Laura too, afraid that she could make me wear a freaking black spade!
Edit: I forgot! My original suggestion was for Heidi to try to wrestle control of Emilia to herself! It's not technically in the poll or the options currently, but she could've perhaps tried to convince Laura that what she is doing is indeed reckless and dangerous, and could indeed end up with a horrible tragedy for Emilia. The bravery I mentioned could come to play in that.
So, all in all, please don't think I'm offended or anything. 😊 I hope my ramblings doesn't discourage you either. Whether it's a a couple of days, weeks, or even months, I'm always looking forward to what you're bringing to the table next. -- Innocent Ruin (talk) 07:33, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
Okay, that's helpful! I'd be up for tweaking Heidi here and maybe making Laura's motives more clear. I thought there was enough subtext but nothing wrong with being more pointed either. And OF COURSE morbid curiosity has now been piqued regarding Milka in your cabin path! That has to come out at some point! --Villenia (talk) 07:43, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
I was waiting to see your response IR before saying anything myself since this one seem like a conversation between you two but yeah i see your point and hell if you like her as a villain thats totally fine and great too since some of my favorite pieces of media the villain is the main thing that makes me love that media, but in my case i see her more like what Villenia said and i might add some of what i said above it i think she is just trying to keep Emilia save too in her own perverted way even if Emilia definitely feels like she is just gonna keep pushing it out of control, after all art is a medium that is represented by the eye of the one watching it as much as some artist hate that is the truth so you can see Laura in this path as whatever you want. but from what we see in this path Emilia wants to go all out and i love it. and same as Villenia I'm very interested in a Milka dark moment from you IR that's sounds really interesting
But seriously Villenia this path is something i truly love so don't feel discourage by me an any way. the least i wanna do is make any of you feel bad this story is one of the last thing keeping me sane in this boring porn world right now seriously there is no good porn lately so thank you both for making my day whenever you both post. --Xephion (talk) 07:50, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
Apologies for that Xephion, I wanted to respond to you too but I kinda ran out of time and had to drive to work. I think you do make good points in defending Laura here, especially when it comes to the kids developing unhealthy vices they want to hide from others. In a sense, it already happened with Emilia when she finally got the opportunity to show her friends, hiding it from her mother. I'm not gonna speculate if it was fear or rebellion, Emilia's fault or Laura's fault, but...
I guess I could make a few suggestions based on your comments and my own thoughts as well, Villenia's comments too! Just in case Villenia hasn't started working on anything yet, that is. (Assuming he even wants to.) Or he can ignore me if he has better ideas, I'm just shooting some ideas out of boredom at coffee room.
Laura's thought of "Emilia, you silly thing, what is wrong with you?!" is a good example of why she could be worried for her daughter, and in my opinion the biggest missed opportunity. She could've blamed herself for being too harsh, or she could've done the same for not being harsh enough with enforcing her rules, and overlooking the fact that Emilia could keep it on in secret. Of course, this could've been left vague in purpose, but I almost feel like it should not have been? And instead of even acknowledging it aloud she turned her attention immediately to Heidi and made excuses like "Pardon? I didn't make her." when in my opinion she most certainly did. Emilia may have let her do it, but Laura is still the one that initiated the punishment. This was honestly the biggest reason why I got "angry" at her personality here, and why I called her abusive and evil. Some honesty and accountability on Laura's part would be very welcome around these two lines I mentioned, even if nothing else gets changed here.
Another thing I would suggest is having Heidi make the same points to Laura that she made to Emilia in an attempt to pull at her heartstrings. Mention the fact that Emilia could've been kidnapped and locked in a cellar, and ask what Laura would've done then? Say something like "whatever you did, it made her want to hide this from you" in an attempt to make Laura question herself.
Regarding option 2, Emilia suddenly becoming a dom for Heidi's sub sounds farfetched to me at face value, but it could make for interesting content, that's for sure! I don't have anything else to say about that, except maybe that "forcing" Emilia to explore other kinks could maybe help all three bond and grow? Like Villenia said, that seems to be Laura's goal here.
Regarding option 3, it honestly feels like the best option to me. Emilia proves to Laura that she doesn't want anything to happen to Heidi, fearing that Laura could do something. It would be a proving opportunity for Laura to show Heidi that Emilia indeed likes and loves this. And finally, it would finally make Heidi accept and embrace Emilia's change, deepening their friendship, maybe even love?
Anyway, just my suggestions on how to handle any possible changes and future. Feel free to ignore them if they suck lol. PS, if you want depressive content for Milka in that path I mentioned, you got it. Scrapped idea: I will probably handle it in a same way Todd Howard handles the question on the disappearance of Dwemer, and never tell exactly what happened, but allude to it and make people make their own decisions regarding what really happened. -- Innocent Ruin (talk) 15:25, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
I will get around to tweaking Heidi and Laura here, so long as I can still naturally get to the same point. But my take on these options were: Option 1: Totally an excuse to get Heidi tied up! But at the same time, a way for her to sacrifice herself for Emilia and prove just how much she cares about her. It would also be a way for Heidi to bargain, to either gain leverage over or negotiate with Laura, to wrestle away control of Emilia as it were. Option 2: If Laura wished her daughter to be a dom one day, Laura could want Emilia to experience what she's missing. If Emilia is in control of Heidi's wellbeing, then it would also help her understand why other people are worried about her. Heidi's willingness to do this also shows her commitment to her friend. Lots of fun interactions too, Milka being either weirded out or jealous that they're spending so much time together, and what if Stella showed up to find Heidi owned by someone else? Option 3: Honestly it was a throwaway option. I do that to myself a lot, put no thought into an option that gets picked, lol. And yet it does fit Emilia's history and offers a way for Laura and Heidi to come to an understanding mutually, so it is fitting. But the "fitting" remark from Laura was about getting Heidi into restraints, lol! --Villenia (talk) 17:24, 27 October 2022 (CEST)
Yeah, I get what you mean with throwaway options. I put up a vote and then think about what I have the most ideas for, but then nobody ends up voting with me! Or worse yet, the option I have the least ideas for wins the vote overwhelmingly! So I have to decide, will I dishonor the vote, or will I challenge myself to come up with some new stuff I haven't thought about yet? Also, I kind of got the impression that is indeed what you wanted; Heidi punished and in chains. I low-key like the idea, and it might make for fun content, sure, but I also find it difficult to imagine that a girl with as strict boundaries as Heidi, and a girl who knows she hasn't done anything wrong, would so willingly accept a "punishment", especially if Laura insists on using black on her. I also feel like it would be too much of a reach for Laura to be so much of a mastermind that she could literally be able to manipulate everyone around her. Like sure, she probably has the highest IQ of any character in this story, but she also needs setbacks. Every character deserves setbacks, even the smartest ones. I don't like the idea of a character that just gets everything they want without effort and without resistance, especially when the said character is as manipulative as Laura is. Then again, to play devil's advocate against myself… Maybe Heidi deserves more setbacks too!
I've got to say, I find it difficult to "write" and "edit" these pages, because even though these characters are my own creations, I feel like your (Villenia's) vision for them, how they act, and how they should act, is so wildly different from my own vision for them. One of the biggest reasons why I'm generally afraid of collaborating; when I work on other people's ideas, I always get this ugly gut feeling that "man, I'm gonna mess something up big time, aren't I?"
Still, I tried my best! hope these changes work for you regardless, not only here but on the pages leading up to this as well. I tried to preserve your overall narrative to the best of my abilities. If this doesn't work, well… I'll just go find a corner to fucking cry in and promise to never touch these again, lol. I also reworded the options since I sincerely don't believe Heidi deserves any kind of "punishment" or that she would agree to one when she has broken no rules, while Laura has. -- Innocent Ruin (talk) 12:09, 27 December 2022 (CET)
You've been busy! I understand what you're saying. Everyone is going to write the same character a bit differently, even just from a stylistic perspective. I haven't gone through all changes as it seems like (just based on post history) that you've edited all my pages, but to add to what Xephion mentioned before, I think some of the exposition you added doesn't work. It feels heavy handed, like you're using inner voices to "correct" characters or be too direct to the reader about what is and isn't happening. Subtext and ambiguity is rife in this style of dialogue-only story as there isn't a narrator and - save for a character monologuing - I don't think there should be a lot of exposition. Even if we stick to one person's thoughts throughout a scene and use them as a pseudo-narrator, too much disrupts pacing and flow and interrupts what is happening in an unnatural way, especially when inner voices become raw exposition for the reader and not simple thoughts of the characters.
Beyond that there are a few things I'll mention. I do tend to favor conflict. It tends to make for more interesting interactions. Protagonists and antagonists, wants and needs, they are easier to play with when there is conflict of some kind. Emilia can fight with her parents, her brother, and her friends, and still love all of them. Characters also need to grow in some way for them to be interesting. That growth can mean that the character will react differently having travelled down one path instead of another. That doesn't betray the character, they are just a slightly different character for having lived those experiences. I think the hardest part of CYOA is remembering only the things that happened inside a single branch when bouncing between 20 different paths because at a certain point it all feels like one big story when it's technically dozens of smaller ones!
The lead up to this scene was about Emilia finding her sub-side and Heidi still not understanding that Emilia would want such a thing. The other path in the treehouse where the girls dom Emilia would've brought that to a resolution, but here it's still unresolved. Whether Heidi is "actually" at fault for bringing Emilia into the game or did more "damage" to Emilia than Laura isn't the point - it should be clear Laura is more culpable for corrupting her daughter by this point; the cabin alone, geez - but Laura got backed into a guilt corner once Heidi started finger-wagging and momma-bear lashed out. Self-sacrifice is a pretty common trope, so I thought it was one reasonable way that Heidi could prove her own devotion to Emilia. Just because she isn't saying that out loud or telling that to herself in her head in this scene doesn't mean it won't happen in the next one. Just because she isn't into bondage doesn't mean she wouldn't be willing to do it for her friend. She's awfully experienced for a 10 year old, so getting strapped down and giving up an orgasm or two to satisfy her bestie's overbearing mother so they can all move on shouldn't be a problem for her. If anything that would prove Heidi is the more mature than Laura gives her credit for. Her not understanding Emilia's motivation doesn't mean Emilia is being forced into anything. Heidi could absolutely just say no thanks and peace out of there, so no qualms with that option being added, I just wasn't personally interested in it because it doesn't make for as interesting of a story, unless her doing so sets up something else later.
Of course it's all a means to an end, and no piece of writing is ever perfect. I'm fine with some of the changes you made, but others don't actually help the scene. If it was truly missing something or if it felt too forced or slow or etc., then sure, but I think your characters are more complex than you portray with these changes. I think the initial version that I posted of this scene was indeed too rushed and one-dimensional and you rightly critiqued that before. However this latest version feels flip-floppy and inconsistent and doesn't build tension in the same way. But I don't take any offense to that. I think you're trying to protect your characters and I can respect that. I would like to rewrite this and continue the scene, admittedly in part to try to prove my point that where it's going can indeed strengthen the characters, but that might take me some time. Alternatively I can give this back to you entirely. Totally your call as I saw you removed your contributor guidelines as well. --Villenia (talk) 20:50, 28 December 2022 (CET)
Well i cant speak for innocent since im not him but i dont think he did this to protect his characters per se it was more of trying to fit a narrative he missed the point of tension and uncertainty sure but im sure he wasnt on trying to take control of the work is was more to take on that suggestion you said before that if you ever wanted to modify something he could do it and he tried it will not always hit since both creator have wildly different forms of storytelling. but at the end of the day him and me (again i cant speak for him but im sure he wont mind this time) we love your work and he did say if you dont like something to change it back since is your work we love what you do.
BTW innocent this is not an attack, not even a criticism is just different opinions or in this case different paths because i have read both of the ways you both like to write one likes tension the other likes details and both are fine ways to do things and there is nothing wrong with it. is just sometimes some changes can change the whole pace of the work by adding to much detail, tension and uncertainty diminished that what i meant when i said it cheapens it i never meant it as an insult or any thing like that it just felt the tension slow down, like i said I LOVE the way you write too because as much as i like tension i love details too. I AM A HUGE LORE GUY in every game and story i have read i love knowing details but i must admit there are moments when too much details can disrupt the narrative. i dont want either of you to feel bad like i said is my opinion and i dont blame any of you for the way you want to write or feel but i had to get out my honest opinion becuase i read it and it truly bother me because it felt like too big of a change in this path.
and innocent you dont have to be afraid of messing up because we are talking only about the things we didnt like of the changes but like i said before there is many changes that i like too details are very important part of the story too. the way you make characters feel more human is amazing and the way you always remember the tiniest little details and correct them i love it too so dont be afraid to messed up because no body is perfect but you did more good changes than bad ones in my opinion. i just have more to say of the one i didnt like thats just human nature we have more to say about bad things than good things so m sorry about that never my intention to make you feel bad or insult you at all.
i love both of your works. even when i dont agree with some things i want to see where you both take things --Xephion (talk) 23:04, 28 December 2022 (CET)
just to add some of the good changes you made that i like a lot just to make you feel better because i feel i have only tlked of what i didn't liked is literally the next page
i love this change a lot becuase we see a mother wanting to take of her child but still willing to punish her.
But she's just a kid… and my kid on top of that. I'll go easy on her, but still… let this be a learning opportunity for her about what it truly means to surrender control…
like i said many of this changes work really well this one is great example of it it added extra details that make her feel like still loves her child but wants to punish her --Xephion (talk) 23:15, 28 December 2022 (CET)
Yes, I've been busy! Or the opposite of busy, to be honest. Kinda been having a manic episode with less sleep or appetite, and since I don't really celebrate Christmas… opens up a lot of free time!
First of all, you say towards the end, "I think you're trying to protect your characters and I can respect that", and that's exactly what I'm doing. However, it also extends to trying to make stuff consistent with the game rules and an overall "tone" for this story, or should I say a collection of "dozens of smaller ones", as you put it. The idea of Laura thinking she has the power to wave a "black magic wand" around to initiate punishments bothers me to no end. Probably way more than it should, I'm not gonna lie. The last point about "tone" I'm willing to concede on any day of the week because while I prefer "Three Brats" to be a lighthearted, relatively drama-free collection of stories, I do love me some messy character drama and shouting matches, and love to sprinkle it in myself!
Still, I just don't like to say it. In my experience, "my way or the high way" arguments only alienate people, and that's not the kinda message I want to give anyone, especially not someone who's actually trying to help me. (Yeah, so thank you for that, and thank you for your patience with my annoying, bitchy, and nitpicky ass.)
First paragraph, you make good points, and I accept your criticism. I'm not that experienced in writing dialogue, which is one of the reasons why I picked up this project in the first place; to get out of my comfort zone, which is writing descriptive content with fewer lines of actual dialogue, and try out a "literary excersize". Not sure why this has over 100 content pages now when that's all it was supposed to be, lol.
Second paragraph, fully agree. Conflict is of course as important to storytelling as tomato sauce is to Neopolitan pizza, as is character development (inner conflict, so to say), and I try to incorporate that stuff into everything I do as well. (Although, to allude to "tone", I try to take a more lighthearted approach as often as possible.) So I kinda knew already that you were going for this, and I did my best to preserve that with all of my edits. The same conflicts are still there, as is the same overall narrative. Or, since you brought this up, do you disagree?
The third paragraph, good points also. I'm kinda repeating myself in that regard! It's a compelling story with Heidi and Milka kinda misunderstanding Emilia, Emilia not understanding the risks involved with what she's doing, and Laura being, well… morally questionable, to put it kindly! So while I did go heavy-handed on editing this page, and while not all of the edits I made here may have been necessary, or necessarily even good… to pivot back to my previous paragraph, that overall narrative is still there. On that note, I would love to see you continue this branch so we can see a resolution. I find this route much more fun than the other choice, where Emilia tests her mother with black, but that's just my personal opinion.
Still, I'm a little confused: I didn't add an option for Heidi to refuse here; I added an option for Emilia to refuse to be marked on this page. Here I merely reworded the options based on one of your older messages in this thread, and I fully agree that Heidi saying "peace out" and fucking off is an awful idea!
So finally, like I said, I'm still interested in what kind of resolution you can give to this clusterfuck of drama. (That's a compliment, by the way.) Rewrite, continue, go all out if you wish to. I'm sure it'll come out highly enjoyable. And yeah, I did remove the contribution guidelines, but nothing has changed. I have no intention of booting anyone out, or barring anyone else from contributing, so if that's the message that came across with me removing that bit… SORRY! I merely moved that stuff to the front page of "Dirty Talk" in the form of "Errors only" and an "ask" link, as it gets the same message across in simpler terms, but I can bring the full guidelines back to avoid confusion.
And Xephion, I don't feel attacked or insulted. As I said, I value honesty, even in the form of a bucket-load of doo-doo! But at the same time, being worried and afraid of messing shit up is a personality trait for me. I can't help myself, lol. And I do indeed try to make my characters feel as human as possible, so I'm flattered to read you feel that way about them. (Although honestly, if I may criticize myself, the kids in this story are probably not the most "realistic children" out there! They act like adults sometimes, and I'm not talking only about sex. 😂) So thanks! -- Innocent Ruin (talk) 00:12, 29 December 2022 (CET)
Sorry for conflating options on different pages, I remembered seeing a new option and Xephion referenced one and I got turned around. I wouldn't be against tweaking Laura a bit to make her a little more playful, but she's definitely exploiting her daughter's deviancy for her own satisfaction. No question about that, but I think that for Laura - as a dom - punishments are playful. I don't think she should take the game as seriously as Heidi and Milka, or most people in the village really. If she is open to watching her daughter getting gangbanged in a cabin by 2 guys and 3 girls after Emilia blacked herself, then the punishments that followed (getting grounded, marked again with black) were more smoke and mirrors and performative than anything dictated by the rules of the game. Laura wanting to then scratch her dom itch with Emilia's friends isn't much of a stretch, so stringing up Heidi to "punish" her isn't strictly about Heidi breaking any rules, even if Laura were to guilt her into doing so.
Anywho, thanks for being gracious here. I do want to continue this scene. Technically I'm still in the middle of the bedroom scene with Emilia and Sven, and I also wanted to return to the after-dinner heart scene as well, but (whether sooner or later) I promise I will get back to this! --Villenia (talk) 20:30, 30 December 2022 (CET)
Everyone gets busy, distracted, and preoccupied with other stuff, so no rush. Just good to know it's somewhere beyond the horizon!
That's a good idea, and tweaking Laura to be more playful about the whole thing would be an improvement because while the word "punishment" means a very specific thing in the context of this story, and while semantics matter in my opinion, it CAN be used interchangeably with just "fun" in the context of roleplay, for example. I've done so in the past as well, so no qualms about that. For Laura to be tongue-in-cheek, giggly, and flirty about it would also be something that Heidi would notice instantly, especially - if I may make suggestions - if Laura conceded some points to Heidi by admitting she's not a perfect mother (I mean, raising a daughter in a village like that must be a nightmare!), or told Emilia that Heidi is right to be worried about Emilia's reckless behavior. Would make it easier for the stubborn little Heidi to admit her mouth may be a little bit too big as far as teaching new kids goes also. Not sure how you could play that to "Emilia self-sacrifice", but the spirit is there, and maybe that's not the route you're thinking about doing anyway. If there's one thing I kinda disagree with you on, it's that Heidi and Milka take the game seriously; nah they just take the rules and dangers seriously. (Comes from experience playing that Emilia - and even Laura - still lack.) They're both sluts in it for the fun, and nothing but the fun!
But I'll be honest, trying to take my L's graciously aside, I did get a little bummed out. I kinda had already accepted that all the changes wouldn't be liked, even though I did try to preserve the overarching narrative, but I didn't expect strong pushback. But I don't take it personally. Criticism tends to have a bad reputation as a word, but it helps artists grow, and while I do take pride in my work, I admit I have a lot of room for growth, especially when it comes to writing interactive stories in English, lol. -- Innocent Ruin (talk) 11:23, 31 December 2022 (CET)
dont get discorouged it was ONE change i didnt like in ONE page i did told you the other ones were great is just that one that i didnt like no one can be perfect love what you do but dont be sad when you fail be proud you tried and keep trying new things i love seeing what you been ding out of late is great stuff --Xephion (talk) 16:38, 31 December 2022 (CET)
Yeah I meant taking the rules seriously (since the game is defined by the rules that's what I meant) so Laura doesn't respect the game as much as Heidi and Milka (better word) and Emilia is just inexperienced. Kids (and people in general) often need to experience something first-hand (or at least witness it) before they accept it as truth. Those thoughts were what guided my Laura's slightly flippant and dismissive attitude toward this "children's" game (activities she was indulging in at the same age without being compelled by markings) and Emilia's embrace of more dangerous and provocative markings. But I get what you're saying and I'll try to take it to heart whenever I get around to tackling this again! --Villenia (talk) 23:06, 31 December 2022 (CET)